Talk:Villa Borghese gardens

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Untitled

Is the Villa Borghese also known as the Borghese Gardens in Rome? I was wanting to make sure that I had a correct link from the article on Randoll_Coate who designed a Millennium maze for the Borghese Gardens. -- Solipsist 16:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Villa Borghese invariably refers to the gardens as well as the structure. Wikipedia's "Villa Borghese gardens" is a recently-introduced solipsism that would have been avoidable by asking anyone who'd been in Rome: an Italian villa includes its gardens, fountains, casine, ninfei... (Yes Boboli Gardens are an exception: they are urban gardens attached to a palazzo.) Entering "Villa Borghese" at Wikipedia and finding a "disambiguation" doesn't serve the reader. The fact that "Villa Borghese" would apply to any villa belonging to a member of the Borghese goes without saying: the village is often appended when there is possible confusion: Villla Medici for examples. --Wetman 10:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edouard Andre contribution?

Has anybody relevant information about Édouard André's role in designing these gardens? Iulius 16:20, 22 September 2006

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Requested move 5 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus that giving the primary title "Villa Borghese" to the gardens would be confusing to readers. Note that this consensus only opposes the title "Villa Borghese"; late in the discussion, the title "Villa Borghese (park)" was also proposed, and did not attract enough attention to develop a consensus in either direction. Accordingly, an RM that proposes a move to a parenthetically disambiguated title may be opened at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 18:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Villa Borghese gardens → Villa Borghese – Common name. Gray eyes (talk) 17:00, 5 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 20:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:11, 20 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 11:04, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: reading over the article one might get the impression that the article is about the Villa Borghese—but in fact the villa has its own article, under a slightly different title: Villa Borghese Pinciana, evidently to distinguish it from other villas owned by the Borghese family, which according to that article may also be referred to as Villa Borghese, although the ones that have Wikipedia articles are listed under other names. I'm not too surprised, since a villa is a house, and this article is almost entirely about the gardens, with one paragraph mentioning that the Galleria Borghese is in the house. Now, given the length it might be appropriate to consider merging this article into the article about the house itself, which is quite short. Then the house and gardens would be discussed together. But that would be different from the proposed move, which keeps the articles separate, but which would have confusing titles—as if both were about the house, and neither of them about the gardens. P Aculeius (talk) 13:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It is indeed confusing that these are the gardens of a building called the Villa Borghese, but the park does itself appear to be commonly known simply as the Villa Borghese and is the primary topic for the term. Italian Wikipedia just calls it the Villa Borghese. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Villa Borghese Pinciana In ictu oculi (talk) 13:01, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed. But the park around the house (which is Rome's largest park) is invariably referred to simply as the Villa Borghese, not the Villa Borghese gardens or any Italian variant. Essentially, Wikipedia has made up the latter name. WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The villa itself is more commonly referred to as the Galleria Borghese, which it contains. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:25, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Italy has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:10, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Architecture has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:10, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Note: WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:12, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as too confusing. "Common name" for what? The house already has two articles, Villa Borghese Pinciana and Galleria Borghese. Romans do indeed refer to the whole area as the "Villa Borghese", but this article is about the gardens/park, and the name needs to reflect this. There are plenty of comparable examples - Hampton Court Palace and Hampton Court Park, both normally just called "Hampton Court"; then there's Versailles.... Johnbod (talk) 23:51, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- These are not comparable at all, as Hampton Court and Versailles refer overwhelmingly to the palaces, whereas Villa Borghese refers overwhelmingly to the gardens. However, if it is not seen as the primary topic (which I continue to maintain it is), may I suggest Villa Borghese (park) rather than the current made-up name, as Wikipedia is not generally in the business of making up names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think you'll find that the Versailles gardens, and other buildings in them, get more visitors than the palace (as is the case with the VB no doubt), so I don't know where "refers overwhelmingly" comes from. Johnbod (talk) 16:11, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    - If you say "Versailles" you generally mean the whole thing (and possibly the town too). If you say "Château de Versailles" you mean just the palace. If you say "Villa Borghese", however, you generally mean just the park. If you meant the palace, you'd say "Galleria Borghese". As I said, they're not comparable, because if you specify "Château" you're only referring to the building. But if you say "Villa" you're referring to both and are more likely to be referring to the park. Versailles is not relevant to this discussion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion: reverse the page move of "Villa Borghese Pinciana" from the redirect (it was at "Villa Borghese" until June 5, when the nominator moved it to its present title), then merge this article into it. That way both of them will be treated under "Villa Borghese", the hatnote will still point readers at other sites that might be called "Villa Borghese", and there won't be any problem distinguishing the house from its gardens. I'm really not sure why they need separate articles in the first place. P Aculeius (talk) 13:33, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'm leaning in favour of Villa Borghese (park), with Villa Borghese Pinciana merged into Galleria Borghese. (I'd expect a museum's collection and its building to be covered in the same article.) It's counterintuitive that the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Villa Borghese is a park and not a building, so we should use the disambiguator to make it foolproof. Ham II (talk) 21:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you want an example of a museum's collection and its building rightly being covered in different articles, look no further than Palazzo Barberini and Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica. There are others. Johnbod (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, what about having short sections about the gardens and the galleries in the article about the house, with "main article" hatnotes leading to the more expansive articles about the gardens and galleries? I do think that the plain title should go to the house. P Aculeius (talk) 22:04, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as too confusing per Johnbod. The redirect is a separate issue. Srnec (talk) 01:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I still oppose the nom, but could live with Villa Borghese (park). I still think Villa Borghese Pinciana (pathetic and largely inaccurate stub that it is) should not be merged into Galleria Borghese. Johnbod (talk) 14:37, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.